Humeanism again
So according to Humeanism, there is no reason to adopt some end, but for any end that you have, you have reason to achieve it.
This feels wrong, but is not straightforwardly inconsistent. In Practical Reality, Dancy mentions a possible internal problem with Humeanism (he attributes it to Brad Hooker):
"on the Humean showing we have as much reason to abandon a desire which there is no reason to have, as to do what will subserve it. For Humeans, since there is no reason to have this desire, there can be no reason not to abandon it. Abandoning it must then be rationally permissible. But if this is so, there can be no reason to do what subserves it, for if we had a reason to do what subserves the desire, and no reason to abandon the desire, abandoning it would not be rationally permissible" (39)
But I don't follow this. There are two possible kinds of reason here: Reasons to satisfy the desire, and reasons to abandon the desire. Humeans claim that you have reasons in favour of the former (and none against), and no reasons (for or against) abandoning desires. I don't see how a conflict can arise between the former and the latter in the way the last sentence requires.
That is, it doesn't follow from:
a) I have a reason to do what is necessary to achieve X.
b) I have no reason not to abandon my desire for X.
That:
c) Abandoning my desire for X is rationally forbidden.
Premise (a) has nothing to do with (c), so I don't see how, in conjunction with (b), it could imply it.
If anyone can make better sense of what's going on here, comments are welcome.

Yeah I see the same problem
Yeah I see the same problem as you do. I detect two arguments in your quoted passage.
[1]
(1a) A has no reason to have a desire for X, and no reason to not have a desire for X.
(1b) So, it is rationally permissible for A to not have desire for X.
[2]
(2a) A has a reason to satisfy the desire for X.
(2b) A has no reason to not have the desire for X.
(2c) So, it is not rationally permissible for A to not have desire for X.
(1b) and (2c) are clearly inconsistent. The problem is how one gets (2c) from (2a) and (2b), as you point out.
The only way I see is this. Argument [2] seems to assume that (2a) implies (2a*):
(2a*) A has a reason to have the desire for X.
And that's because (2a*) and (2b) combined is the only way we can get (2c), or its equivalent: that it is rationally required for A to have the desire for X. But (2a*) clearly begs the question against Humeanism, and it is not at all clear how if at all (2a) implies (2a*): that needs to be explained, not assumed.
I admit that something does sound fishy in Humeanism as you state it... that would be reason to investigate whether and how (2a) implies (2a*). But I think Hume's actual position is not as fishy: i.e., there is no reason to choose one end over another, it is simply a matter of sentiment rather than reason, but of calm and stable sentiments, such as would be shared by those practical critics with refined and well-cultivated tastes. So the choice of one end over another is not rational or irrational, but it is not arbitrary either. Once the ends are set by our sentiments, then reason takes over in dictating how we pursue those ends. When we state it like this, at least for me, the fishiness dissipates (though I myself disagree with Humeanism and also with Hume's actual more nuanced position).
"I think Hume's actual
"I think Hume's actual position is not as fishy"
Yes, it is rather a shame that Humeanism doesn't really share much with Hume's view. Schroeder refers to his own Humean view as hypotheticalism (after the hypothetical imperative), which seems to me to be a preferable term. Though of course it now refers to Schroeder's distinctive slant on that position, and not the more general group of views that lay in the area.
Alex
hypotheticalism
[Edit by site admin: I've removed a sentence here, and correspondingly changed the post title.]
As to hypotheticalism... if it's really based on Kant's hypothetical imperative, then it's an entirely different thing from Humeanism. According to Humeanism, at least as I understand it, the oughtness of means-end judgments derive from the desires (call this the desire-dependence thesis). According to Kantian hypotheticalism, however, the oughtness of means-end judgments derive from the oughtness of the rule that one take the most effective means toward one's ends (call this the rule-dependence thesis).
So the normativity of means-end judgments are located in different sources by Humeanism and Kantian hypotheticalism. And here I think the Kantian position gets what the Humean position misses. The locus classicus of this observation is Jean Hampton's "Does Hume Have an Instrumental Conception of Practical Reason?", Hume Studies, 21:57~74. IMHO Hampton's piece is far better than Korsgaard's criticism of Hume/anism.
I should note that Schroeder
I should note that Schroeder responds to both of these points (for what it's worth, I take his criticism of Hampton and Korsgaard to be decisive).
I just realised I've forgotten to name the book I'm talking about: It's Mark Schroeder's Slaves of the Passions. I recommend it to those interested in Humeanism, and will certainly have something to say about it in the near future.
Alex
Thanks for the Schroeder
Thanks for the Schroeder book reference, and I look forward to your future posts on Schroeder.
I think a satisfactory Humean response to Korsgaard is easily possible (as I read her, she too assumes the desire-dependence thesis), but against Hampton's curmudgeon... now that's something very exciting.
Here's Hampton's argument, paraphrased.
Suppose that there is someone like Hampton's curmudgeon, who is not committed to the rule "Take the most effective means to your ends!" (you can replace this with your preferred instrumental rule, such as "Maximize utility!").
The curmudgeon prefers X, and knows that Y is the most effective means of getting X, but does not choose Y. If we criticize him by saying that he ought to do Y because he wants X, this criticism will have no effect on him. Instead he will reply, "I want X, and this gives me reason to get X, but this does not by itself give me reason to do Y to get X." For the curmudgeon to acknowledge our criticism, deliberation must transmit the reason which his desire gives him to the most effective means of satisfying his desire, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RULE "Take the most effective means to your ends!". But since our curmudgeon is not committed to this rule of deliberation, he cannot acknowledge the force of our criticism.
Now if the curmudgeon is instrumentally rational he would be able to accept the force of criticism based on the instrumental rule of deliberation. But this presupposes an ability to commit oneself to a rule of deliberation, to acknowledge the normative force of such a rule, and to generate further non-instrumental reasons based on the rule (i.e., further deontic reasons of this form: this particular action accords/violates the rule, so it is permitted/required/forbidden).
So I read Hampton's as a transcendental argument for the existence of a form of normative practical reasoning beyond instrumental reasoning: in order for instrumental reasoning to be possible, we must presuppose the existence of a non-instrumental form of reasoning.
(I think a Humean-esque response should be possible, but only if we posit a more complicated psychological structure to the desire-belief model. If anyone is so kind as to let me know where Schroeder responds to Hampton's curmudgeon, I can get a copy of that chapter via interlibrary loan.)
"If anyone is so kind as to
"If anyone is so kind as to let me know where Schroeder responds to Hampton's curmudgeon, I can get a copy of that chapter via interlibrary loan."
It's chapter 3, though you might find it easier to understand if you've read the second chapter as well.
A brief glance suggests that the argument involves a scope fallacy. This isn't how Schroeder phrases his response, but I wonder if it's equivalent.
Where "e" is "adopts some end", "m" is "pursues the means", and "R" means "the agent has a reason to", the Humean asserts:
(i) e -> Rm
Hampton thinks this can only make sense if you accept:
(ii) R(e->m)
But it's not clear why you can't accept (i) but reject (ii).
But I haven't read the Hampton paper, so it's possible that I'm missing something.
Alex
Hampton's argument
Hey Alex, I appreciate the helpful citation. I've read the chapters you recommended, it's good stuff and now I feel I ought to read the entire book.
But to reply to your very good question:
My sense is that Hampton might argue your (i) will be true only if you accept, not (ii), but:
(iii) R'(e->Rm).
...where R' is the reason given by one's commitment to the normative rule stated in (i), whereas R is the reason given by the end that one desires.
So my sense is that Hampton will argue for the truth of the following conditional:
(iv) (e->Rm) -> (R'(e->Rm))
...or to abbreviate using our roman numeral names:
(iv) (i)->(iii)
But I cannot answer your question head on--I cannot show how your (i) implies or presupposes my (iii). Let me suggest that this is because (i) and (iii) are not statements of the right form. As stated, (i) and (iii) ascribe reasons to agents under certain conditions, and from a third-personal standpoint. I suspect Hampton's argument can be seen clearly only when it is run from the first-personal deliberative standpoint, from the perspective of the agent who is using these reasons normatively to guide their course of action.
So, take someone, Adam, who engages in instrumental deliberation, let's say the following:
(1) I shall save my kidnapped child.
(2) To save my kidnapped child I must pay the ransom.
(3) So, I shall pay the ransom.
...where (1) states the propositional content of Adam's desire adopted as end, (2) states the content of his means-end belief, and (3) is his intention formed on the basis of (1) and (2).
As I see it, Hampton's curmudgeon is someone who has the requisite desire and the means-end belief, but is either unable or refuses to acknowledge the normative force of concluding (3). It is possible for the curmudgeon to do this because (3) does not follow from (1) and (2) alone, but from premisses (1) and (2) according to a rule of inference that Hampton calls the instrumental norm.
It may be helpful to see Hampton's curmudgeon as the practical counterpart of Lewis Carroll's tortoise, in his "What the Tortoise Said to Achilles". Just as in theoretical reasoning the conclusion follows from the premisses in accordance with various rules of inference, so it is too in instrumental reasoning. A complete statement of why we ought to accept the conclusion seems to require mentioning the rules of inference as reasons along with the premisses. That's what I take statement (iv) above to be doing.
There are various complications here that I can't address: Lewis Carroll's worry of infinite regress, Schroeder's distinction between reasons and background conditions, and so on. I need to think about these more deeply. But I will address a couple of points.
One complication comes from what Kant says about the analyticity of the instrumental norm. Kant says in his Groundwork: "it is an analytic proposition that, if I fully will the effect, then I must also will the action necessary to produce it" (Beck tans). If this is analytically true, then there will be no inferential gap between (1) and (2) on one hand, and (3) on the other. So the curmudgeon will be inconceivable, just like the married bachelor.
Hampton addresses this complication in her book THE AUTHORITY OF REASON, Ch.4. I will add this. If the instrumental norm is analytically true, then it will be impossible to violate it (just as a bachelor cannot fail to be unmarried). But it is meant to be a normative principle guiding our conduct, as Kant himself emphasizes. It is something we can fail to follow, and we can acknowledge such failures as rationally blameworthy. So my suggestion is that Kant gets the analytical proposition by trivializing the instrumental norm. If the instrumental norm is "Take the indispensably necessary means to your end!" then that does seem analytic, because without intending to take the steps necessary to realizing the end I cannot intend to realize the end. But the instrumental norm is a bit more demanding and complicated than that. Hampton's formulation is "Take the most effective means to your end!", and that involves comparison of various alternatives, none of which is necessary, but one of which is sufficient, to realizing the end. E.g., Adam would deliberate on whether to pay the ransom, or to report to the police, or to do both, and so on. Such a norm we can fail to follow, and we would be blameworthy if we committed ourselves to such a norm. But it also seems to me that there is room for disagreement as to what this more substantive and demanding instrumental norm is, and also that one can reject it altogether or restrict in scope (e.g., not "Maximize!" but "Satisfice!").
Last point I want to add is that commitment to rules of practical inference, the stable and reflective disposition to infer practical conclusions from certain beliefs and desires, also gives us reasons. A psychological account of such commitment seems to be possible, and I think Hume and Gibbard go a long way in providing such an account, though Hampton doesn't think so.
I enjoyed thinking about these issues. Sorry for the very long comment :)
Interesting thoughts! I'm
Interesting thoughts! I'm afraid I don't have much to add, other than that the worry about the infinite regress seems powerful to me. I'm not sure that the rules of inference should be thought of as part of the reasoning that they govern. On the other hand, I'm not sure how else to describe what's going on with respect to this, so I'll have to give it some thought.
Alex
Is it not simpler? In the
Is it not simpler? In the passage from Dancy: 'on the Humean showing we have as much reason to abandon a desire which there is no reason to have, as to do what will subserve it.' This does not fit with your statement of Humeanism. We have no reason to have a desire, abandon a desire or not abandon that desire, but we do have a reason to act on that desire for as long as we have it. It is not, therefore, true that 'we have as much reason to abandon ... as to do what will...'
According to Hume, reason applies to the doing, but not to the having. This seems so elementary that I wonder if I'm missing something.
As I say, perhaps I'm
As I say, perhaps I'm missing something here, but I don't quite follow your remarks. I take the first sentence of the quote from Dancy to be false: this is part of why I find the passage so confusing. It is false because the Humean view is that we have no reason to abandon desires (nor to keep them)[1], but do have reason to subserve all desires that we find ourselves with (you seem to agree with this). That means that we have more reason to do what subserves a desire than to abandon it. As you say, the Humean view is that reasons are for and against satisfying desires, not having them to begin with.
[1] All assuming that we don't have second-order desires to keep or abandon the first-order ones, that is.
Alex